Will I Earn Enough to Live and Save in France
June 7, 2010 by tony · Leave a Comment
This is a recent exchange of mails I had with a newsletter reader who wants to come to live and work in France. I can only make comments based on my personal experience and observations and would welcome any input from other readers.
===
===
Hi Tony,
I just discovered your site via a link from http://www.moving-to-montpellier.com/, which referenced your recent post about renting apartments in France.
I am an American software engineer living in Minneapolis currently. My wife and I are interested in moving to France, and I am currently interviewing with a company in Grenoble.
I just wanted to write and say “Merci” for the great website(s), I’m looking forward to reading your other posts this weekend.
I really enjoyed your post, I can’t remember the link, but you had written “Wisely, Paris built their Disneyland outside the city & they plan to keep it there.”. You articulated in that article exactly what my wife and I experienced in France at different times and exactly why we want to move there- in France life is not always judged in terms of money value.
I have one question in particular I’m trying to answer to help assuage some anxiety I have about this move:
I get the impressive that the French generally save a lot of their paycheck, I think I read somewhere that they saved 10%, which is about 11% more than what the average American saves. I also have the impression that food costs are rather high compared to the US, and rent seems a bit higher too (in Grenoble I’ve found 800 Euro seems to be the going rate for a one bedroom place). I have contradictory impressions; a lower salary, a higher cost of living, and yet higher savings rates than in the US.
The approximate salary I have found for my work is about 50K euro in Paris, and less in the provinces, although I’m not sure yet how much less.
Would this be enough to provide for myself and my wife, own a car, and still save money?
Thank you,
Jeff
===
Hi Jeff
Income in France is low – average is about 22,000 euro a year – you can get a better idea about income from this site – http://www.worldsalaries.org/france.shtml
However a salary has a lot of social charges paid by the employer – it virtually doubles the cost of employing someone – for this you get the best health care in the world and excellent social services, education etc.
Housing is,expensive, the rent for Grenoble sounds about right, 800 euro a month for an apartment.
Cars are comparatively expensive, as is fuel, about 5 euro a gallon
Food I am told is more expensive than the USA, quality is good and the French are very careful shoppers.
The French are traditionally savers and the 10 percent or so of earnings does not surprise me.
You hit the nail on the head – it is impossible to put a value on the quality of life. With the sort of salary you have been offered you would be considered a wealthy person in France and could live comfortably, but never luxuriously.
Hope this helps
Best wishes
Tony
===
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your response. So far my job hunt has yielded nothing. I realize this is a pretty general question, but do you have a suggestions for finding a job in France?
So far I’ve been sending out emails in response to job site listings. I’ve had a couple of calls, but no offers. Some contacts I’ve discussed this with have said the key is to be in France, rather than in the US. Others say the immigration rules in place now will make getting an offer very difficult in France. Others say I should be able to hire myself out as a consultant. Some say I should stick looking for jobs with larger corporations, although my preference is to work for smaller organizations.
If you have any suggestions you’d care to share, I’d be grateful,
Jeff
===
Hi Jeff,
It is difficult to find work in France, most companies only recognise French qualifications and it is a fact that they will prefer to employ French nationals, there is supposed to be equal opportunity for European countries, but this is not apparent – for non- European it is much harder to get employment unless you have a skill which is badly needed and not available in France.
To have a chance of getting employment in France you will need complete mastery of the French language and be established in France with good references. French companies generally only recognise an education based on the French baccalaureate.
All I can suggest is reading through as many forums and adverts you can, in French, to explore opportunities – I think it would help if you were based in France. Some areas, like Nice and Grenoble claim to be centers for IT businesses, but in my experience the French are a long way behind other countries in software and IT development – it is not just a language thing. There are many reasons why companies keep their payroll down and automate as much as possible, it is why their industry is the most efficient in production per employee in the world, but service industries lag far behind and are generally inefficient.
I will post on my blogs and see if I can get some more feedback.
Tony
Balade in Languedoc
June 5, 2010 by tony · 2 Comments
We live in the heart of Languedoc in Southern France. Our village is called Montblanc. This is slightly confusing as, although the village is on a hill it certainly is not mountain and must not be confused with the white snow capped towering peak of Mont Blanc in the Alps which is about 5 hours drive away. Another slight confusion is the brand of pens, watches and luxury items named Montblanc – it means I could not register the Internet site, although I have secured the name for some places like Twitter.
Montblanc is surrounded by vineyards, in fact we are in the center of the largest area of vineyards in France, some say the largest area of vines in the world. Good wine needs sun, soils and water and Languedoc is an oenological haven. But before the vineyards expanded in the 19th century, sheep farming was dominant, hundreds of thousands of sheep moved from the coastal plains of Languedoc up to the higher grass of the plateaux every year. But you can’t enjoy a good glass of wool, so I prefer the vineyards.
Thanks to a Mr Napoleon, French farming is still an small family operation, thousands of small units, most are less than 75 acres and this is usually in a lot of small parcels of land. So not only are we surrounded by thousands of acres of vineyards, we have hundreds of local wine producers supplying and making wine. Some are good and some are not so good and some are superb. With each producer making several different wines each year, the choice is wondrous.
Right in the middle of our village, by the crossroads just up from the cafe is Domaine Les Prunelles – this is about 200 yards from our house Villa Roquette – they offer a good selection of wines costing from under 2 euro a litre to a top price of 11 euro a bottle.
The vingneronne (a person who cultivates the vines and who also makes this into their own wines) also organises a series of walks, suppers and jazz evenings at their classic wine domain – this year they have ten of these special animations and on Friday morning I went for a stroll (a balade) into the countryside with a group of 20 other local people.
There was a 15 euro subscription which included two refreshment stops with unlimited wine, fresh ham, cold meats, cheese, foie gras, tapinade and on our return a full lunch with more unlimited wine, local sausage etc etc and more wine. At each rest, sitting under olive trees with the Mediterranean on one side and the mountains of central France on the other, we were entertained by a conteuse – Virginie Lagarde is a professional storyteller, we heard six folk tales of mystery, magic and mayhem told with grace and charm.
All through July and August the Domain des Prunelles is offering their Balades Vigneronnes and Soiree a Themes.
Summer arrives in Villa Roquette
May 22, 2010 by tony · Leave a Comment
Unusually, today I have done nothing at home in Villa Roquette – I should be concreting,plumbing, tiling, painting as well as writing blog posts, advertising, marketing, in addition to researching properties and creating new websites – but, I have just sat down, put my feet up and done – nothing – diddly squit – until now as I am obviously writing about doing nothing which is something I suppose.
My excuse is that yesterday I set, mixed and laid a few tons of concrete for the new apartment terrace, I got carried away as it was such a great day and just kept on ’till I ran out of gravel, so today I have done nothing 
It has been a good day for doing nothing, hot, calm, dry and sunny – a perfect day in the South of France – our guests are charming and have also done nothing, jut relaxing by the pool, Miranda and Jack have done nothing as well, just getting a tan – Carole of course has been working hard bringing cups of tea and feeding us all.
So now for the summer – can I manage a few months of this, mix a little concrete, feed the fish, walk the dogs – yes, I think I can.
So now to get ready for the winter – I will be marketing long winter breaks in our apartments, or our B&B at super fantastic special rates. We had a smashing couple for three months last winter and it would be great to share out home again with long-stay guests from October through to April (or longer – whatever) – the (very important) central heating operates fine – and winter barbecues or Carole’s great Table d’Hôte meals are wondrous with the local good red wines.
Join us for baked oysters and Champagne on the terraces this Christmas
Buying a Home in Herault Languedoc France
May 6, 2010 by tony · 2 Comments
When we moved to France 20 years ago my passport said I was a photographer – although I have done many, many things in my life, this is the only thing I actually have paper qualifications to do so it’s what I put on my passport application forms years ago.
I planned to have courses from our home here in Languedoc from Nizas teaching Zone System photography, but we migrated into other rentals and property businesses and I only ever ran two workshops, I ended up as a real estate agent – strange how life moves your paths.
I still hope to return to, what is now very old-fashioned, black and white chemical photography, working with techniques now over 150 years old, but ‘needs must as the devil drives’, and my immediate plan is to offer real-estate services again from June here in the South of France.
Today I replied to an email from one of my newsletter readers, I am publishing it here as it may be useful for others thinking or planning to buy a property in this region, Languedoc – the department of Herault (34) in Languedoc, Southern France…..
==
Hi
Your plan to find a home seems sound and clearly you have thought through some of the factors you wish for in a property – I will comment on them here in a sort of “stream of consciousness”.
Renting a place for a while while you look is very sensible – we rented for 4 years when we moved to France and I spent most of that time looking hard at what there was, understanding the life we were moving to and adjusting my plans (and altering my own lifestyle and aims in life) – I do not believe it is possible, unless you are mega-rich, to bring a way of life along with your suitcases when you move to France – Paris and some places on the Riviera are exceptions as it is possible to move and live there for years and cocoon yourself in a bubble of ex-pat lifestyles masquerading as the ‘real France’ – but in Herault, the local culture is strong and you must absorb the values they offer or live in isolation.
To rent a furnished 2 bed home for around 700 euro a month is possible, but will be very difficult to find in Herault – most will be unfurnished and on a minimum one year lease (although you can cancel with three months notice, the landlord cannot) – agents and landlords will usually demand a lot of guarantees and references. There are holiday villas which could be rented for the winter perhaps – but add the cost of heating and services
To buy a property outside a town or village will be much harder to find as there are not many – they were never built – but modern developments on the edge of villages are everywhere – it is a local policy to build new developments around every town and village in Herault and there are a lot of nice properties being constructed aimed at the French market and attracting people to move here from all over France – there is also an increase in business and industry in most places – this is partly to exploit the fantastic road, rail and air network which makes Languedoc, in many ways, the true center of Europe. wherever you rent, make sure there is good central heating, winter here is a misery without it or very expensive if you have electric radiators.
To buy – some properties in the countryside are being renovated from old farm buildings, these are in big demand and can be bought ‘cheaply’ (under 200,000 is possible, under 100,000 is much harder) but the cost of renovation of these stone buildings is astronomical. A contractor will cost from 5,000 euro a square meter to renovate and the cost can easily be as high as 15,000 euro a square meter (compare this to the purchase price which is around 1,800 to 3,000 euro a square meter) – this is more than double the value of the property and you end up with a place worth perhaps 300,000 euro which has cost you 750,000 euro – be very very careful with ‘projects’ in France, casual labor costs up to 50 euro per hour – illegal workers can be brought in for as little as 15 euro per hour, but in nearly every case the tradesman at 50 euro is cheaper in the long run.
Renovating yourself saves on labour costs – the learning curve for the traditional trades is steep – putting a window in an old stone house can mean shifting 15 tons of rock and reinforcing a couple of hundred tons of wall with girders (I know, I have done exactly this which took 2 weeks labour for one window which in the UK would have been an afternoons work) – the end result will usually be a compromise as houses in the countryside of this part of France needing this sort of renovation costing about 200,000 euro were not built as comfortable places suitable for modern living, but mostly as dwellings for farm workers or temporary homes due to the transhumance of the sheep in Summer to higher pastures (hundreds of thousands of sheep were moved to the plateaus every year from this area, wine growing as the dominant industry is relatively (19th century) recent. In fact tourism is the main ‘industry’ of this region.
I understand your preference for the countryside – village houses are always cramped, in narrow streets and with rarely any outside space at all – unless you are paying well over 350,000 euro for a “Maison de Maitre’ which will need as much spending again for renovation, these village homes are very charming to visit for a few weeks as they reinforce the comfort and convenience of your own home with a garden, kitchen with a window and warm bedrooms – anywhere in summer in Southern France is delightful, even an old unconverted barn, winter is something else.
At your budget, in Herault, you are much more likely to find a property with some space and possible a courtyard in a village, although not much outside land or garden, they do exist. They are more likely to be in the higher, more remote parts of the department – many village properties will offer a plot of land for gardening outside the village, although these are getting harder to find now.
As you are not into quaint and historical – think about building new – building costs are from 2,000 euro per square meter and a plot of land with services from 120 euro per square meter – this would typically be on the edge of a village as the land has to be ‘zoned’ for building – all villages are extending these zones and a lot of new land is being offered – but this would be on a new development of similar houses.
Finding a plot in the countryside is difficult, there is a big demand and not much on offer – you can look for an existing run-down habitation and then try for planning to ‘develop’ it (expanding new and keeping the original perhaps as a garage – but this is hard to get. Never think of buying before all agreements and planning permissions are in place
It is possible to find the ‘right’ home within your parameters – it takes a lot of local knowledge, time and luck, so if you are budgeting to rent and look hard, especially over the winter months when things are more ‘dormant’, everything is possible (perhaps).
As for rented accommodation, all I can suggest at present is to rent an apartment in our place, on a 3 month (or longer, up to 6 months) let from October/November we can five a special winter only offer our ‘Rose’ apartment for 900 euro a month all inclusive (heating aircon etc – the central heating is essential from November to March at least). We will also have a smaller apartment ‘Quince’ available then at 650 euro a month.
http://villaroquette.com/apartments/rose-apartment/
I am registering (again) as an Estate agent from June this year and have a number of unlisted properties to offer already – I am not opening yet another ‘shop’ – but offering my local knowledge, experience and Internet services, including some new ‘search and identify’ facilities. I am going back into this business and will be working hard to offer a fair and honest service which brings together my experience of Internet services and 20 years of local knowledge and living in France.
Alas I will not have time to use ‘wet plate’ techniques to photograph the properties and print on platinum papers and I will try to curb the urge to photograph every room with a 14mm lens – but I will discover new places and meet interesting people and, hopefully, earn a living.
Write to me with as much information and your thoughts so I can begin to ‘profile’ your wishes and send you information.
Hope to see you later this year
Tony
==
Tourism in France and French Letters
May 1, 2010 by tony · Leave a Comment
I have just got back from the Bourse de Pliants in Montpellier – badly translated this an ‘exchange of leaflets’ organised by the regional tourist offices – yesterday was the press day with free drinks and a free lunch, so was very well attended (bless the press), over 700 press and trade visitors.
Over 200 stands were set up in the park of a Chateau in Montpellier and everyone had piles and piles of leaflets to hand out and distribute for all the offices of tourism and places like our G̨tes in Villa Roquette Рthere were leaflets and posters by the truckload Рliterally Рhalf a car park was full of pallets of leaflets and fork lift trucks were needed to shift them. This was all in the open air so the obvious happened Рit rained.
Tables groaning with hundreds of thousands of euro worth of soggy paper were everywhere.
Apart from paperwork, the other thing the French are master craftsmen at is talking – about themselves – the only dry place was a theater tent with a large group of besuited ‘experts’ talking about how they, and they alone, had the answer to tourism in the South of France – this attracted an audience of nearly two, until it rained more heavily and this audience nearly doubled.
I found the day very valuable, I discovered a lot of places in Languedoc which are amazingly beautiful, thousands of years of civilisation have created a heritage which is one of the richest in the world and I believe that, area for area The South of France has the greatest concentration of evidence of human civilisation of anywhere in the world (including China and India – they are big places).
The day also confirmed that the regional localisation of tourism (read town by town, even village by village) in France has made a complete mess of the information available. To illustrate this point a good example is our own Gîtes and B&B at Villa Roquette.
We are the closest B&B to one of the most important crossroads in France, close to the Mediterranean, ten minutes from Pezenas, the most beautiful and complete Medieval town in France, ten minutes from Agde – the second oldest town in france and ten minutes from Beziers, where the World heritage site, The Canal du Midi, was conceived – but can I put my brochures in any of these places with all the others offering accommodation – no – because our local tourist office is the “Pays du Thongue” (I bet you have never head of it) and the rule is you can only be represented by one tourist office – I have not even found out where this tourist office is and can only guess that the number of visitors asking for leaflets is a number probably less than one. I also would guess that they have received a pallet load of damp leaflets this week as they did not even have a table at the Bourse in Montpellier.
One of my many new projects on my “wish list” is to make a new website where I have compiled all the available leaflets about a region, structured them into interactive maps and then you can discover ALL the local places of interest, decide which you like and then print out the actual leaflet and assemble them into itineraries along with places to eat an sleep – not an advertising site and the aim is to include every place which has produced a leaflet which you can download.
New photos of Villa Roquette
April 28, 2010 by tony · 2 Comments
I have been so busy building and sorting out our home that I have not had time to edit our websites including Villa Roquette or add photos – here are some taken today of the Pool which i am delighted to say is getting warmer
Pool at Villa Roquette
Pool and Lawn at Villa Roquette
Terrace and Barbeque at Villa Roquette
Hurrah for the Hoopoe
March 18, 2010 by tony · Leave a Comment
At last – after a blooming cold winter, this morning Carole head the sound of the Hoopoe – each summer we welcome these outrageous birds to our garden, their distinctive call and crazy plumage are a delight. This morning is was admittedly more of a lower case “hoop – hoop”, probably saying why the hell did I leave Africa to come to the South of France, instead of “come on big boy, I’m waiting for you”.
They are happy birds, said to be bringers of good luck – a guide through difficulties – they are faithful and they are smelly.
Come on in Hoopoes, summer awaits you on Villa Roquette
The Cost of Living in France
February 14, 2010 by tony · Leave a Comment
For the fifth year running, France has been voted the best place in the world to live by some magazines and journals. This is the reason why hundreds of thousands of educated and qualified people are moving to France to live or to retire.
Being the best does not mean it is perfect, there is a cost, not only in the cost of buying food and shelter, but adapting to a different culture and values.
Comparing income and expenses is simple, there are many websites offering this service such as the one I mention in this reply to a letter today ( http://www.worldsalaries.org/france.shtml ) – but if you need the adrenalin buzz of wheeling and dealing, building a business or developing new ideas – France may not be the most fertile place for your skills and imagination – in fact it is hard to succeed in business anywhere, but just nigh on impossible in France.
It all comes down to the unmeasurable “quality of life” – (if you know parameters I can use to quantify the quality of life I would like to learn)
Her is the mail I replied to a few minutes ago……
===
Hi Tony,
I really enjoyed your post, I can’t remember the link, but you had written “Wisely, Paris built their Disneyland outside the city & they plan to keep it there.”. You articulated in that article exactly what my wife and I experienced in France at different times and exactly why we want to move there- in France life is not always judged in terms of money value.
I have one question in particular I’m trying to answer to help assuage some anxiety I have about this move:
I get the impressive that the French generally save a lot of their paycheck, I think I read somewhere that they saved 10%, which is about 11% more than what the average American saves. I also have the impression that food costs are rather high compared to the US, and rent seems a bit higher too (in Grenoble I’ve found 800 Euro seems to be the going rate for a one bedroom place). I have contradictory impressions; a lower salary, a higher cost of living, and yet higher savings rates than in the US.
The approximate salary I have found for my work is about 50K euro in Paris, and less in the provinces, although I’m not sure yet how much less.
Would this be enough to provide for myself and my wife, own a car, and still save money?
===
Hi,
Income in France is low – average is about 22,000 euro a year – you can get a better idea about income from this site – http://www.worldsalaries.org/france.shtml
However a salary has a lot of social charges paid by the employer – it virtually doubles the cost of employing someone – for this you get the best health care in the world and excellent social services, education etc.
Housing is,expensive, the rent for Grenoble sounds about right, 800 euro a month for an apartment.
Cars are comparatively expensive, as is fuel, about 5 euro a gallon
Food I am told is more expensive than the USA, quality is good and the French are very careful shoppers.
The French are traditionally savers and the 10 percent or so of earnings does not surprise me.
You hit the nail on the head – it is impossible to put a value on the quality of life. With the sort of salary you have been offered you would be considered a wealthy person in France and could live comfortably, nut never luxuriously.
Hope this helps
Best wishes
Tony
A warm and Sunny Day in February
It was not a “Dark and Stormy Night” – but a bright and Sunny day today, so we went to the seaside to collect some seashells for my Mum.
Not much more to say really except “Wish You Were Here” and show some photos or Marseillan Beach and Marseillan Town (the beach is on the Mediterranean and the Port is slightly inland on a huge inland sea-lake.
Marseillan Beach on the Mediterranean in Languedoc
Marseillan harbour Entrance Languedoc France
Marseillan Port
Front Entrance for Villa Roquette
We collected plenty of sea-shells, but could not get a stick-of-rock for my Mum.
A Guide to Renting in France
Although home ownership in France is increasing, most people live in rented accommodation. In major cities apartment living is the usual way of life.
The Internet is changing the way we do many things, until recently nearly all property rentals were arranged through an an agent immobilier – estate agent – this was their main business, but increasingly home rentals are advertised and sought online. Sales of private properties have increased, as has the number of agencies and the rental service has changed, although there are usually some specialist agencies offering rentals in large towns.
In France the tenant has very strong rights and is protected in many ways from exploitation by landlords. But this protection has caused problems for property owners. There are many cases where an owner has not received any rent for years yet cannot gain access to their own property. This has discouraged owners from renting and there are changes now planned to some laws which give fair rights to both owners and tenants.
At present an unfurnished property will be offered normally on a standard three year agreement, renewable for a further two three year periods with fixed maximums to the increase of rent to be paid. Furnished accommodation is often offered on a one year agreement and a registered student can obtain a nine month agreement.
Unless there are restrictions (as there are in central Paris) a furnished property can be rented as a seasonal or vacation property for any period less than six months. In central Paris only one year tenancy agreements can be offered, vacation rentals are not allowed, unless the proeprty is correctly registered and rated as a commercial property (very few are).
The tenant can cancel the rental agreement with three month notice. The owner can only request vacant possession at the end of the period of the lease if they require if for their own use or intend to sell the property. If the property is offered for sale the tenant has the first right of refusal to purchase. An owner cannot artificially inflate the selling price or use other devices to inconvenience the tenant without risking expensive penalties.
If you are looking for rented accommodation and use estate agents, you need to know that there is no central listing service so it is necessary to get information from all agencies in a region to find the available properties.
Many commercial owners do prefer to use agencies to assist in protecting them from “troublesome” tenants. Agents will charge normally at least one months rent commission for finding a suitable tenant and about the same each year for managing the rental. Howeern renting diret from an owner does not often reduce the rental demanded, although you mayb able to negotiate the deposit required.
Agencies will normally demand a further two months, sometimes three months, rent as a security deposit. This is only repaid at the end of the tenancy after a full inspection of the property has been completed.
When a tenancy has been agreed, a detailed inspection (an ̩tat des lieux) is made Рther are standard foms for this and it is usually ery detailed. The tenant should check carefully all entries, note any prior defects or damage to the property and take photographs where possible. Make an note of every hole, scratch, mark or stain. For a landlord to claim a property had to be completely repainted and to charge a huge professional rate for this to the departing tenant does happen.
Unfurnished property can be very basic, a kitchen may only have a basic sink, I have seen properties where the light bulbs are removed and not offered with the property. If you are taking over a property and view it when it is occupied, do not expect any of the fittings and fixtures to remain, or insist that those items which are with the property are listed and agreed.
Be sure you are aware of any other costs in renting. You will be liable for the taxe d’habitation each year. Interestingly it is the person who occupies the property on January the first of a year who is liable, so if you move in on January the 2nd you get 364 day free of this tax for your first year. The owner of the property is liable for the other local tax the taxe fonciere. Check what this is at the local Mairie.
There are other charges on a property, especially apartments. Management, maintenance and concierge charges may apply, be sure to get these confirmed and explained in writing before you sign an agreement. These charges do change annually, rarely downwards.
Services are usually paid by the tenant, most usually water gas and electricity, but also waste collection and other services may be added charges. Check carefully what is included in the rental.
Once you have found a place to rent and are comfortable with the agreement, you will have to prove your income. This is usually proof of at least the previous three months income, a contract of employment, bank statement details. Your disposable income should be at least three times the rent demanded. If there is any problem, you may also be asked to supply one or more guarantors who have assets or proven income to support your charges. Guarantors are almost certain to be demanded if you are self employed or an “artist”. Now you know why many famous artists lived in squalid garrets, they could not get a proper apartment.
In most cases you will need a French bank account as payment will usually be demanded by autonomic monthly payment.
However, first you have to find your property – this is anther article.